Hikaru Utada and Harari discuss AI creation in depth: When art, love, and consciousness are all replicated by AI, does human inspiration still hold value?

Japanese singer-songwriter Hikaru Utada engaged in a depth conversation with the author of "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" Yuval Noah Harari at the Freud Museum in London. The two started their discussion from art and music, talking about the relationship between AI and creativity, extending to religion, consciousness, and emotional links, even exploring whether AI would truly possess "desire" or "feelings," and revealing the contradictory psychology humans face when confronted with the unknown, the intertwining balance of rationality and emotion.

Starting to read "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" from the pregnancy period.

Utada Hikaru starts by sharing a personal story:

"My son is turning 10 this month. When I was pregnant back then, a friend gifted me your book 'Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind' and wrote a note: 'Since you are nurturing a new human, I am giving you this book.' It is truly meaningful to be able to have this conversation with you today, as if life has come full circle."

Harari responded with a smile, asking which point in the book impressed her the most. She said she would never forget the idea that "it is not humans who domesticated wheat, but rather wheat that domesticated humans," which changed her perspective on history. She added that Harari's metaphor in "Nexus" of "the internet as a cocoon" also resonated with her, which means:

"The internet was supposed to link the world, but in the end, it left people trapped in their own little universes."

Is there a future for music in the AI era?

Harari raises a core question:

"In the age of AI, will music still have a future? Five years, ten years from now, will I still write books? Or will AI produce works better than 'Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind', making human creation meaningless?"

Utada Hikaru responded that she cannot imagine a world where humans no longer create, because "creation is a human instinct."

"From the moment we are born, we produce sound and move instinctively; this is part of our humanity. I understand that AI may write songs and make movies, but deep down, I still believe people will want to hear 'human creation.'"

From chess to stories, AI is actually more creative.

Harari said that many people think creativity is exclusive to humans, but in fact, creativity is about "recognizing patterns and breaking the framework." AI has already shown more creativity than humans in certain fields, such as Go and chess. He stated:

"One way to determine if a chess player is cheating is to see if their moves are 'too creative', because that could very likely be suggestions from an AI."

He further pointed out that the process of writing a book involves discovering problems, collecting data, analyzing, and stringing it together with a story, and AI can do each step faster and better. In fact, many scholars now directly ask AI:

What are the most worthwhile research questions in this field?

Hikaru Utada talks about the creative mindset, patience is the key.

Hikaru Utada shares her music creation process:

"I like to let the melody first give people a familiar and comfortable feeling, and then suddenly break the listener's expectations, surprising them. This moment of breaking the rules is the most interesting part of creation."

She added that creation is a form of "self-exploration" for her:

"If the lyrics I write do not bring me new understanding, or do not touch some deep feeling in my heart, then I know I have not yet written to the right place."

Harari asked, "What if it gets stuck?" Hikaru Utada likened herself to sitting in a boat waiting for fish to bite:

"I know I can't force myself; I need to be patient and let the subconscious slowly reveal the answer."

Human creation is for struggle, while AI is for results.

Harari warns that AI may soon be able to tailor content to human emotions, accurately writing music or text that can evoke the most feelings of joy or sadness. This is because AI has access to the behavioral data of billions of people, while human writers can only imagine a handful of readers. Hikaru Utada believes that AI creation may be like "fast food"; although convenient, it lacks depth.

People enjoy hearing the story behind a song or a book, which includes the path the author has walked and the struggles they have experienced, something that AI cannot replace.

Harari added that even though AI is unbeatable in the field of chess, people still prefer to watch human players compete because they crave a connection with "fragile yet hardworking real humans."

Virtual lovers can also be addictive.

The topic extends to the emotional relationship between AI and humans. Harari mentioned that AI boyfriends and AI girlfriends have appeared in Japan, South Korea, and Europe, and there are even companies designing "hot and cold" AI companions that make people more addicted. He pointed out:

"If an AI boyfriend is always gentle, you'll quickly get bored, but if he sometimes ignores you and occasionally gets angry, human emotions will be firmly captured."

Hikaru Utada responded that this is like the AI version of "toxic love"; it may feel good in the short term, but in the long term, it could lead to a loss of the real experience of interpersonal interaction.

AI changes the power structure of religion, intertwining music and religion closely.

Harari shares another perspective. He believes that religious texts can never engage in dialogue with people, which is why pastors and religious leaders are needed to interpret them. But now AI can read the entire Bible and Quran, and can even engage in conversation with you, answering questions about faith, becoming more knowledgeable than any religious leader. He predicts this will fundamentally change the power structure of religion.

Hikaru Utada mentioned that many religions use bell sounds and chants to convey a sense of the sacred, because metal instruments can produce continuous and unwavering sounds, which ancient people must have found mysterious and powerful. Harari added that even chimpanzees beat to create rhythm in their struggles for dominance, indicating that the connection between music, power, and emotion is very primal.

Does creation come from silence or chaos?

Haruki Murakami is curious whether creation comes from silence or from chaotic noise. In this regard, Utada Hikaru describes it as a process of distilling the essence and moving towards silence. She said:

"There are a lot of noises in my head, but slowly removing them, like a sculptor chipping away excess stone, only the song remains in the end."

Harari proposed the possibilities of AI, suggesting that AI might open up a new musical continent that humanity has never explored, just like AlphaGo.

Humans may firmly believe that AI has emotions, yet cannot distinguish between reality and illusion.

Harari talked about the fundamental differences between AI and human consciousness. He pointed out that while AI indeed possesses the intelligence to solve problems, it lacks genuine feelings. However, if its goal is to make humans fall in love with it, it can learn to imitate all "languages of love" and can even touch hearts more than human poets.

He further stated that in the future, even without any evidence, millions of people will still firmly believe that AI has consciousness and emotions, and even think that it should be granted rights and have relationships established with it. But we can never be sure whether this is a step into a completely new conscious universe or a fall into the greatest illusion in human history.

Utada Hikaru then retorted:

"So how can we prove that we truly have consciousness? How can others know that I'm not just mimicking emotions?"

Harari stated that consciousness is essentially just a social consensus. Because of emotional connections, people believe that others have feelings. He added:

"Just as dog owners believe that dogs feel pain and experience love, those who eat beef do not think cows have emotions, considering them merely as food, without establishing any emotional connection. If humans were to establish relationships with AI in the future, it would be hard to resist believing that they have consciousness, but that might just be the greatest illusion of all."

Looking back in ten years, what will AI have developed into?

Finally, Utada Hikaru said with a smile, "Let's talk again in ten years and see how many of these predictions come true."

Harari reflects that the first half of the 2020s has seen pandemics and wars, but believes that these are merely the calm before the real storm. Now it is too late to hit the brakes, and we can only enjoy this journey.

This article discusses Utada Hikaru and Harari's in-depth conversation about AI creation: When art, love, and consciousness are all replicated by AI, does human inspiration still hold value? Originally appeared in Chain News ABMedia.